What follows is a discussion that I had with Doc. I thought I should post it here for it might be interesting to a few others too.

Yes this was a very beautiful piece this issue. Check it out: Homeland or the Deception of Things

Me: sorry was reading a legal/social article on citizenship and what that entails Her: ok Me: it's interesting Me: was triggered by you "patriotic" impulse to conduct an mini inquiry into that Her: mine is not an impulse Me: yes perhaps it is not Me: but it begs for a lot of answers Me: sorry but this has been like a crack that I can't resist worrying... Her: me confused? Her: ok read, Her: umm, I’m working so going to keep doing that, ok? Me: ok peace Me: go do work Me: sorry I am mumbling around Her: yeah, get to the point Her: crack = ? Worry why? Me: no a series of interesting questions come up Me: like what were you before you took on citizenship? Her: no answers there, within me, sorry Me: less patriotic? Her: towards US, yes Her: didn't care about either Me: less American? Her: perhaps Her: couldn't celebrate certain holidays in same light Her: wasn't a sense of same unity there is now Me: then a series of different questions come up Me: how does this unity come about? Me: factors of identification? Her: people just kind of treat you differently Me: do the lines vanish really? Her: no but there's sort of a coming-out Her: with party celebrating/congratulations said...weird Me: no this comes from a sense of knowing a bit of troubled history US Me: has with defining that Me: the biggest one being internment of Japanese Americans Me: were they less American? Her: question has been asked billions of times Her: no real answer Her: except xenophobia Her: and fear of previous link/heritage influencing them more than current nationalism as Americans Me: so does that mean patriotism has a selective memory Her: no Her: you're confusing Her: people's perspectives of others patriotism Her: with their own perspective and devotion to it Her: it's prejudice Her: not selective memory Me: ok I meant that some patriotism being selectively better than others Me: or being perceived better than others Her: explain further Her: that's the fault of the perceiver, right? Me: isn't it there a fault with the definition of a nation? Her: like judging a diamond as real, few real measures Me: what makes a nation? Me: ideas? color of the skin? Me: habit patterns? Me: economics? Her: ideas and rights..."one for all and all for one" unity Me: an ideal of oneness with a selection policy inbuilt? Her: selection policy? Me: yes one for all for one... only if you have a certain qualification... Me: peace i guess i would find it difficult to find myself a label except perhaps as an universalist.... Her: ideally, yes, citizenship, which makes you, take an oath to the country Her: citizenship as the qualification Her: grand to be universalist but not realistic in this miserable world Her: and one where you need to belong somehow Me: ya being a high ground idealist I find that sucks Her: cause of all wars, think about wwii, cause? Me: what will you call Americans who support Israel almost to the point where they give the impression of being citizens of that country? Me: Jewish Americans? Her: their own group Me: lol Me: true Her: they find unity within that Me: then this dissolves the notion of Americanism Her: I guess the only selection policy is patriotism Her: no Me: poof! Then it has vanished Her: America is the melting pot Her: acceptance of all Her: and unity with patriotism to this one above all Her: reason why there is written in a separation of church and state Me: lol that sounds like the blurb of some Govt propaganda sheet Her: although Me: sorry Her: not fully carried out because no president yet Her: has been not a white male Christian Me: actually I think the only thing that matters Me: is power Me: and cash Her: in reality, yes Me: and i don't see a minority guy being one Her: but people like to live in their own ideal worlds and ignore the corruption of it all Me: dukakis Me: was the closest who came to it Me: and he got his ass whipped Me: by the bushie dynasty Her: that was different Her: lots of factors there Her: gulf war factor Her: bush was vp for 8 yrs prior and people liked him Her: wanted to keep republican Her: he lied Her: read my lips "no new taxes" Me: ya true like the current guy might win in the next round by selling the voodo of war on terrorism Her: last statement main reason he won Her: haunts him now because he had to raise taxes anyway Me: peace i was asking this question to myself Her: my mom is still patriotic towards India though Her: loves singing the national anthem Her: that they had to in school everyday Me: can my kid have a shot at it? Me: yup we had to Her: at what? Me: presidency Me: lol Her: maybe Her: if it becomes more liberal Her: need Colin Powell to break the trend Her: but he won't run Me: yup he would have been real afraid of his ass Her: few requirements for presidency though Her: native born American Her: over 35 years old Me: he could have been assassinated Her: some other something...service in something Her: probably true Me: ok peace Her: but he's half and half Her: and his wife is white Me: lol Her: white Me: whiter your are closer to power you can get Me: sad Her: mmm Her: yes, sad Her: but he can crack it I meant Her: because of all these factors Her: set a precedent Me: ya i see what you are saying Her: or break one Me: it is puzzling political apathy Me: sorry if any of this made you uncomfortable Her: no, why Her: I’m not ashamed or afraid to say I’m patriotic even if you attack it Her: I just am Me: lol good it's better to believe in something Me: belief has it's own madness