HMF:

"Sashi, I agree with you, One can be a charming dater and still be no further in the EQ type skills as you say, but the converse is not true unless one engages in "test drives." By that I mean, in order to be in a position to show a woman you are kind, empathetic and emotionally agile, the test-driven achieved skills of attraction generation, social dynamics or the more crude "gaming skills" need to be tip top. And we live in a society that expects it, but grew up in a society that essentially discourages it.

That's really all I was saying, because the women that advise their guy friends to "be themselves" to attract other women, might as as well advise them to eat their own excrement. And I sensed in your comment :

"this is not to implay that "romance" skills are not required but that they are minor, atleast in my system of thinking"

you were headed in that direction. Sorry if I read into it too far."

S:

You have sort of finessed the "relational dynamics" skills some more from what I took them to be in your first comments; and they now, to me, seem to narrow down to "gaming" (or dating) skills. Yes, I am with your assertion that to pick up these up you have to be a "player" in the "game", so that that you become more effective, polished, skilled etc in order to improve your "outcomes". Perhaps it is time for me to sign up for a PUA course or not. ;)

HMF:

"Sorry to drag this out even further, and don't take offense at this, but I'm surprised at two things:

1. You're male
2. You posted a link to a PUA site, most guys I know in the scene try to be as discrete as possible about it.

And lastly, I am contending that these gaming skills are vastly more important as the other more "venerable" traits of kindness, empathy, etc.. - in the initial stages. Initial stage success is a prerequisite for final stage success, but doesn't guarantee final stage success.

If you open a social interaction with kindness, empathy and "niceness" - you're shat on. Plain and simple."

technophobicgeek:

"Personally, I do not consider anything fundamentally wrong with a PUA course, though it is in poor form to brag about it. At least for desi guys who did not grow up in the US, I just see it as a way of integrating into this culture better, developing the particular social skills that Indian culture does not expect, and most Americans learn by experience.

AC, I don't think it has anything to do with age or maturity or anything, though it's easy for Americans to make that accusation. Dating involves specific presentation skills, in addition to the 'nice' qualities, and I think most people in the US just take those for granted without realizing that they may have to be learned.

Of course, any tool is as good or bad as it is used or abused, so I would draw the line at using those skills to hurt or deceive people.

Of course, this is all theoretical, I haven't taken any courses yet, maybe when I get out of school and have a real job..."

S:

I linked to that PUA thingy as a joke, and not with the intention of outing dark secrets - besides being the perpetual geek, I first encountered that whole PUA scene via a book review a while back.

chants verses of the Bard

"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players: They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts..."